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Time to "finish the finish"
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Author:  kjaffrey [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Time to "finish the finish"
I just finished buffing the finish on my #27 acoustic, and was once again surprised at how long the sanding and buffing can take. I manage to expect it to take a couple of hours to sand the finish level (800 grit and 1000 or 1200 grit) then buff (using buffing arbor and two menzerna dry compounds,) but it always takes me closer to 4-5 hours. This made we curious as to how long it takes everyone else.

For me the time on most aspects of the build have gotten much shorter over the years, except the finishing of the finish. Granted the gloss on my guitars keeps looking better, but the time just won't shrink down like it has in the rest of the build.

So how long do you find it takes to go from the cured finish to the buffed and shiny surface on an acoustic neck and body?

Thanks,
Kent
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
And now we know why all the amateurs wash out of luthiery.... whole lotta elbow action going on.

Used to take me an 8 hour day to completely buff and polish a freshly cured finish.
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
The higher you sand, the quicker it is. I sand up to 2500 and it takes me 2-3 hours to buff.
Author:  James Orr [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
Are you guys buffing by hand or machine buffing?
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
My arms can't sand for eight hours straight. No way. :) I'm good for about two or three in a day. I've learned to seriously focus on the prep and spraying to keep the leveling and polishing to a minimum.

I can prep a guitar for spraying in a day or two....maybe up to four total hours of scrubbing. Mind you, these are set neck electrics so there are a lot of detail areas. There are only a few places to use power tools.

I spray polyester sanding sealer for pore fill...several coats...no sanding between them. After a few days curing, I can level with 220. That takes about three hours total.

Topcoats can be polyester, polyurethane, or nitro with a vinyl tie coat...if I don't mind waiting three weeks to level. My biggest battle in finishing was to learn to spray such that it laid down smooth and could be leveled with 1000 grit (600 at the very coarsest). So that takes about 2-3 hours followed by another hour with 1500. If poly is used as a topcoat another session with 2000 is required.

At the StewMac polishing wheel it's maybe an hour...maybe 1-1/2 hours to use the medium and fine compounds.

They are turning out very nice but I think maybe an additional last step with a handheld rotary buffer and a sponge wheel using the Fine Menzurna liquid compounds would add that final professional look to the large, flat surfaces. Advice from Saul Koll....a very good guy.

So...roughly 12 hours of scrubbing to get from raw wood to a polished finish...and yes...it gets on my nerves.

I'm doing one now with tung oil. It makes me LAUGH how stupid easy it is if you don't have to fill pores and have a glass finish.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
Quote:
I'm doing one now with tung oil. It makes me LAUGH how stupid easy it is if you don't have to fill pores and have a glass finish.



Yup. Pretty easy to operate a rag.
Author:  DannyV [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
3 -4 hours of sanding and maybe an hour to buff if all goes well. I think for me the largest portion of time for one task on a build goes to set up. But that's a whole other topic.
Author:  Robbie_McD [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
Yup, 4-5 hours at least after the final last coats have cured....
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
Chris Pile wrote:
Yup. Pretty easy to operate a rag.


Someone should kill the guy that invented shiny.
Author:  Mike Baker [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
4-5 hours sounds about right. From the moment I begin flat sanding the lacquer to the final buffing. That's on an electric, and doesn't include cleaning the polish out of the neck, pickup and control cavities. Or the final rub out by hand with a good swirl remover. Just the way it is.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
Same time frame here. Even with Dynabrades and some serious industrial buffing wheels....

Skip right from anger/denial and jump straight to acceptance....;)
Author:  Doug Balzer [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
Put on some good tunes. Have a great beverage on hand to slowly reward yourself at progressive milestones (personal fav: Leffe Blond or Bruin). A recipe for a nice afternoon.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
kjaffrey wrote:
I just finished buffing the finish on my #27 acoustic, and was once again surprised at how long the sanding and buffing can take. I manage to expect it to take a couple of hours to sand the finish level (800 grit and 1000 or 1200 grit) then buff (using buffing arbor and two menzerna dry compounds,) but it always takes me closer to 4-5 hours. This made we curious as to how long it takes everyone else.

For me the time on most aspects of the build have gotten much shorter over the years, except the finishing of the finish. Granted the gloss on my guitars keeps looking better, but the time just won't shrink down like it has in the rest of the build.

So how long do you find it takes to go from the cured finish to the buffed and shiny surface on an acoustic neck and body?

Thanks,
Kent



If I'm brushing Shellac/Spirit varnish I can do a whole finish in that time, including pore filling. Although it's also true to say that I don't aim for a finish that is as glossy or as flat as some. I learnt a long time ago that when it came to finishing, I had to choose my poison carefully.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
Quote:
Someone should kill the guy that invented shiny.


Don't make me laugh! laughing6-hehe
Author:  Mike Baker [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
Stuart Gort wrote:
Someone should kill the guy that invented shiny.


Or at least wound him severely. :evil:
Author:  joe white [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
If I remain focused, I can level the body and neck in an hour but most likely it is a 1.5 hour task. I can buff the body and neck in one hour or even less sometimes. That includes four different wheels/compounds to get where I want to be. The early ones took me all day to buff. [uncle]
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
Joe, what menzerna numbers do you use?.
Author:  James Orr [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
Do you ever read threads that make you think you've been doing it wrong all along? I've always taken a handful of passes with Menzerna medium, then fine. Never takes more than 20 minutes. What is it that you guys do?
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
More like, what is it that you do, James?
Author:  joe white [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
meddlingfool wrote:
Joe, what menzerna numbers do you use?.


#W113 first wheel.

#P204 second wheel.

#W16 third wheel.

P175 final wheel.

Remember, I am buffing polyester. It's tough stuff to get a scratch out of but this four step procedure works well for me.
Author:  Rob Flindall [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
Geezzz..... you guys measure in hours? I'm currently measuring in days to sand and buff a guitar..... sigh.
Author:  James Orr [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
I've always leveled with 400 grit "Brilliant 2" on the Festool, then use their "Platin" pads at 500 and 1000 grit. The leveling is never fun, but it takes about an hour? Perhaps longer. The two Platin grades don't take too long, and then I buff with Medium and Fine Menzerna compounds with 14" canton flannel buffs on the Caswell Platings buffer.

My first guitar was finished with Poly. I never got it to a gloss. McFadden's nitro since then, and they've all seem to gloss up as soon as they've hit the buffs. I'm working through my first finish with Cardinal right now, so I wonder if things will change.

But where a room of guys and one pro say it takes them an hour or more, I'm inclined to wonder if I'm getting the same quality of gloss you are.

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Author:  meddlingfool [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
Hard to say without seeing it right up close. Looks good on the iPhone at least. :)
Author:  B. Howard [ Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
Level sand and buff takes me about 2-1/2, maybe 3 hours. My process looks similar to Joe's. Recently changed my sanding schedule, now level with 400 dry followed by a few different scotch-brite. This was a real time saver.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Time to "finish the finish"
Going by those photo's it looks too glossy! But that's just my taste. I don't like the sheet of glass look and I think that there are better finishes that look a little easier on the eye.
That's partly the problem of using abrasives to polish. You are virtually compelled to go through all the grits and polishing compounds until all the scratches are gone. It's a one way street. It seems the devils out for the SS maker - it's super gloss or nothing, or it's considered bad workmanship.
Anyway, that's my take on it. I'm glad I don't feel compelled to do that type of finish or a finish that takes days to achieve.
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